Really well articulated. You laid out the productivity and investment value of Roam well, as the number of notes increases. Sort of like it's own little Roam Metcalfe's Law!
I'm a longtime Evernote user and I'm currently trying out Roam (and Obsidian, which is similar). As you say, Roam leans heavily on the value of links between notes. I will say that with Evernote (imperfect, I know), I have found that setting up and managing links between notes takes a lot of time and energy — it’s the right thing for some kinds of information, but not the right thing for many others. I find using labels to be a looser, better match for most of my purposes — the information isn’t structured, but that’s usually fine, and getting information into the system and making it findable seems more important than explicitly linking it in meaningful ways.
To create the sort of graph you describe, do you have to open notes back up and cross-link them with other notes that have been created? E.g., if you have a client company called "Quantus Informatics", does the Quantus contacts notes have to link to all the other Quantus notes? And if you add a note summarizing a call with Quantus's CEO, do you have to go in and add a link to it from the 5 other notes where it might be relevant?
It seems to me that I want more of an "idempotent" system -- I create a note, I tag it with all the tags that come to mind, and then later, I search for whatever I'm looking for and there it is. Yes, it's somewhat unstructured, but do I really know the proper structure, anyway?
-Do you have to open notes back up and cross-link them with other notes that have been created? I do that pretty infrequently today, because while typing notes, I use [[]] to link to old ideas if I know I've already linked to them in prior notes, or to create a new link that I will use in the future. I've not, however, gone back into imported notes from Evernote to try to cross link them with notes I've taken since starting to use Roam. I wish that my prior notes automagically got linked to everything I've created in Roam.
-Roam does show "unlinked" references on any note page - I've found this helpful to check if I have forgotten to link to the idea somewhere in my past notes.
-I like your idea for more of an idempotent system. Hopefully Roam becomes that over time. Or maybe someone else will build it.
What a great post, Nikhil! This almost makes me think if the companies that form community-focused feedback loops or are naturally AI-driven by the virtue of their products, have a higher probability of providing a better user experience?
Hey Nikhil, I have been tinkering with a networked-notes idea in mind for several days now, and I think Roam Research really hits upon that. My idea is that we go through tons of content every day/week (in form of articles, video, and audio). Sometimes an idea really resonates with us, but that idea might not be important at that moment but can be used somewhere down the line.
For instance, today I went through Gokul Sriram's famous SPADE framework to make difficult decisions. Now, I am sure I will forget about this framework in a couple of days. But, if somehow I can be recalled of this framework when I have to actually make a difficult decision, I can utilize whatever I read/experienced a few months/years ago and use that in a relevant context. Similarly, a few months back, I watched Indra Nooyi's interview and was inspired by one of her leadership principles. Now, although I wouldn't need to use that principle right now, I might need to use that a few years later (let's say when I am leading an org or starting up).
So, what if these networked thoughts could be stored onto a platform and that platform intelligently suggests which ideas to use in that very moment? I know it might sound a bit philosophical right now, but I believe it holds immense power or as you would say "next big thing"! Would love to know your thoughts on this.
Love that idea. Will need some serious intelligence to know when to surface the ideas, but step 1 is organizing the ideas automagically, and I think products like Roam are a step in that right direction
Hey Nikhil - I actually thought of Roam too when I read this part of Cpaik's frameworks. And while the story of Roam is still being written, so this isn't about them, I do wonder whether many of the outlier successes don't fit inside these (very good) frameworks? Some of the best new startups break the rules or simply don't fit inside an older way of looking at things.
Cpaik's piece seems quite good and accurate (from what I know) but I wonder if strict adherence to these will lead people to miss the next big thing.
Specific to Roam:
a) As you mention, it may become easier to use over time.
b) The market of people willing to use a product like Roam that involves some up front learning is growing and quite large. (Which may not have been the case 10 years ago)
c) If enterprises adopt Roam, then the learning curve is no longer an issue as they provide training.
all great points, Daniel. by definition the outlier companies are... outliers. they break the rules. that's always worth remembering as you think about what advice to listen to, and which to ignore.
For vc I'm still using Onenote, which is ... dinosaur like! For writing I moved to Notion mostly because I can use database/tables with status etc, though it is still clunky. The entity connection across notes seems like something that would be amazing to have but the lack of import/ mobile app is kind of a big issue ...
Thanks Nikhil! Been using Roam for quite sometime integrated with Readwise so that it captures all my notes from all the places, but I have still not reached that aha moment.
Would love to hear more on what happened that struck gold for you.
For me, the aha was being able to have more context for a meeting I was going into because the person I was meeting had come up in multiple prior conversations... if I hadn’t had the person as a linked reference across the notes from different conversations, I wouldn’t have remembered to connect all the dots at the beginning of the meeting. Does that make sense?
you've piqued my curiousity about Roam - as a (very very) longtime Evernote user the lack of import is a bit daunting in terms of the value prop, that being said, Evernote quality and consistency have been on a rapid decline so I'm likely to abandon ship soon
Appreciate the detail. I've had issues with evernote & other note taking apps due to the need to constantly organize & re-organize your notes to realize future value (and I find myself spending more time organizing & planning than actually writing). I've been following Roam for ~the last year for this reason (self/auto-organization), and as you mentioned, users (that stick with it) seem to love it.
Really well articulated. You laid out the productivity and investment value of Roam well, as the number of notes increases. Sort of like it's own little Roam Metcalfe's Law!
🙏🏽🙏🏽
I'm a longtime Evernote user and I'm currently trying out Roam (and Obsidian, which is similar). As you say, Roam leans heavily on the value of links between notes. I will say that with Evernote (imperfect, I know), I have found that setting up and managing links between notes takes a lot of time and energy — it’s the right thing for some kinds of information, but not the right thing for many others. I find using labels to be a looser, better match for most of my purposes — the information isn’t structured, but that’s usually fine, and getting information into the system and making it findable seems more important than explicitly linking it in meaningful ways.
To create the sort of graph you describe, do you have to open notes back up and cross-link them with other notes that have been created? E.g., if you have a client company called "Quantus Informatics", does the Quantus contacts notes have to link to all the other Quantus notes? And if you add a note summarizing a call with Quantus's CEO, do you have to go in and add a link to it from the 5 other notes where it might be relevant?
It seems to me that I want more of an "idempotent" system -- I create a note, I tag it with all the tags that come to mind, and then later, I search for whatever I'm looking for and there it is. Yes, it's somewhat unstructured, but do I really know the proper structure, anyway?
Ben, thanks for sharing. Couple responses:
-Do you have to open notes back up and cross-link them with other notes that have been created? I do that pretty infrequently today, because while typing notes, I use [[]] to link to old ideas if I know I've already linked to them in prior notes, or to create a new link that I will use in the future. I've not, however, gone back into imported notes from Evernote to try to cross link them with notes I've taken since starting to use Roam. I wish that my prior notes automagically got linked to everything I've created in Roam.
-Roam does show "unlinked" references on any note page - I've found this helpful to check if I have forgotten to link to the idea somewhere in my past notes.
-I like your idea for more of an idempotent system. Hopefully Roam becomes that over time. Or maybe someone else will build it.
What a great post, Nikhil! This almost makes me think if the companies that form community-focused feedback loops or are naturally AI-driven by the virtue of their products, have a higher probability of providing a better user experience?
i think that's right, Shreya!
Hey Nikhil, I have been tinkering with a networked-notes idea in mind for several days now, and I think Roam Research really hits upon that. My idea is that we go through tons of content every day/week (in form of articles, video, and audio). Sometimes an idea really resonates with us, but that idea might not be important at that moment but can be used somewhere down the line.
For instance, today I went through Gokul Sriram's famous SPADE framework to make difficult decisions. Now, I am sure I will forget about this framework in a couple of days. But, if somehow I can be recalled of this framework when I have to actually make a difficult decision, I can utilize whatever I read/experienced a few months/years ago and use that in a relevant context. Similarly, a few months back, I watched Indra Nooyi's interview and was inspired by one of her leadership principles. Now, although I wouldn't need to use that principle right now, I might need to use that a few years later (let's say when I am leading an org or starting up).
So, what if these networked thoughts could be stored onto a platform and that platform intelligently suggests which ideas to use in that very moment? I know it might sound a bit philosophical right now, but I believe it holds immense power or as you would say "next big thing"! Would love to know your thoughts on this.
Love that idea. Will need some serious intelligence to know when to surface the ideas, but step 1 is organizing the ideas automagically, and I think products like Roam are a step in that right direction
Hey Nikhil - I actually thought of Roam too when I read this part of Cpaik's frameworks. And while the story of Roam is still being written, so this isn't about them, I do wonder whether many of the outlier successes don't fit inside these (very good) frameworks? Some of the best new startups break the rules or simply don't fit inside an older way of looking at things.
Cpaik's piece seems quite good and accurate (from what I know) but I wonder if strict adherence to these will lead people to miss the next big thing.
Specific to Roam:
a) As you mention, it may become easier to use over time.
b) The market of people willing to use a product like Roam that involves some up front learning is growing and quite large. (Which may not have been the case 10 years ago)
c) If enterprises adopt Roam, then the learning curve is no longer an issue as they provide training.
all great points, Daniel. by definition the outlier companies are... outliers. they break the rules. that's always worth remembering as you think about what advice to listen to, and which to ignore.
Would love to go through your Roam setup via zoom
For vc I'm still using Onenote, which is ... dinosaur like! For writing I moved to Notion mostly because I can use database/tables with status etc, though it is still clunky. The entity connection across notes seems like something that would be amazing to have but the lack of import/ mobile app is kind of a big issue ...
Thanks Nikhil! Been using Roam for quite sometime integrated with Readwise so that it captures all my notes from all the places, but I have still not reached that aha moment.
Would love to hear more on what happened that struck gold for you.
For me, the aha was being able to have more context for a meeting I was going into because the person I was meeting had come up in multiple prior conversations... if I hadn’t had the person as a linked reference across the notes from different conversations, I wouldn’t have remembered to connect all the dots at the beginning of the meeting. Does that make sense?
you've piqued my curiousity about Roam - as a (very very) longtime Evernote user the lack of import is a bit daunting in terms of the value prop, that being said, Evernote quality and consistency have been on a rapid decline so I'm likely to abandon ship soon
give it a try, Laura, and keep us posted!
Appreciate the detail. I've had issues with evernote & other note taking apps due to the need to constantly organize & re-organize your notes to realize future value (and I find myself spending more time organizing & planning than actually writing). I've been following Roam for ~the last year for this reason (self/auto-organization), and as you mentioned, users (that stick with it) seem to love it.
try it out, Rishi! and let us know what you think.
cheers Matt, going to try to find a time to do a walkthrough with a bunch of readers, stay tuned!
Nikhil, LMK if you do a walkthrough. Thanks :)